Sandbox Games CANNOT Be Successful?

Sandbox Games CANNOT Be Successful?

Okay so almost every single time I talk about
or showcase a sandbox pvp mmorpg, I always get the same comments. Sandbox pvp games can’t work in mmorpgs. Now I’m of course a fan of sandbox pvp mmorpgs,
so already I’m like half wounded…But just from my perspective, I think this is wrong. 9 times out of 10 if you ask that same person
who made that comment, why they think that is the case, why is it thaat sandbox pvp mmorpgs
can’t work, they always say the same thing…Because there isn’t one, they all died, they all weren’t
successful, they all suck. Now today’s video let’s examine this statement
and why I think it isn’t all that accurate and perhaps spark a discussion in the comment
section about the nuances of this. That could be fun right? So upon hearing that statement, that they
can’t succeed and that they always fail, that makes sense right? I mean name a successful sandbox mmorpg….The
thing is before we even get to that point we are already mired in the questions that
need to be asked. What is success? Who is defining the success of the game? Of course this is all just purely subjective
and you could end the conversation there, but since this video is about exploring the
concept and using previous examples to back up each side of the argument, we’ll indulge
the fact that this is a sliding criteria which no one can ever define. The first and already I think most important
point is that there’s obviously levels to the mmorpg game. You have your big money, big resource companies
that could almost do anything, so square enix and activision blizzard. Then you have your smaller but still, for
the mmorpg space the big fish, zenimax studios with bethesda, pearl abyss, nexon, netease,
companies like these that are big money players in the mmorpg space. Those are the companies that make themepark
mmorpgs. They have a lot of money, a lot of experience,
a lot of resources. And not a single one of them can make a game
as big as wow, with all those things I just mentioned. Then you have the people who make sandbox
games. Usually 1-20 man teams, on shoestring budgets,
with no publishers, working out of someone’s basement essentially. So is it reasonable to say, sandbox pvp games
can’t work because none have worked yet on this basis? To me, of course that’s absurd….To you? Let me know in the comments. The way I think about this specific point
is like this, people said we would never go to the moon…We did. Until someone with the knowledge and the resources
actually tries something, how can you say it absolutely cannot succeed? Do you think when world of warcraft wasn’t
even a rumour people were thinking an mmorpg could come out and within a few years have
13 million monthly paying subscribers? Of course they thought that would be a ridiculous
concept, it was a super tiny niche genre at that stage and gaming in general wasn’t the
stage it is today. You’re basically comparing an average sports
player who has a game with his friends once a week to a guy who is a literal professional
players at the top of the game and asking why one isn’t successful. How many mmorpgs have come out trying to emulate
world of warcraft and failing to even scratch the surface of the players that game has had? Hundreds of them. How much money did they all cost? You can’t really answer that but I’d bet the
vast majority of that number would be vastly more money than is spent on the average sandbox
pvp mmorpg. And then you might ask, well, why is no one
making sandbox pvp mmorpgs? Which I think is a fair point to ask. That’s got quite a few different answers but
the shortest and simplest one is just this, innovation in the sense you think about it,
a fresh brand new idea…Is very uncommon almost everywhere. Usually what we get for innovation is the
iterative type, it’s copying a successful idea and improving it slightly and over time
that innovation happens.The safe money, the proven market is that world of warcraft themepark
model works. So a company that is sort of your upper to
middle tier of mmorpg developer or publisher probably doesn’t have one big project that
is a total unknown and could flop in them before the company folds. They didn’t make their money innovating. They made their money doing what the vast
majority of businesses do…They take the itteration approach of innovation. Only a massive mainstream company could absorb
that kind of loss, so they just stick to what is popular, why take the risk? Let someone else with less money than you
take that risk and then if that’s successful, copy it and make it slightly better. That’s pretty true even for mainstream gaming
and a lot of other industries in general. I hope that makes sense to people and I’d
love to know your thoughts on this. I think this original point of sandbox games
can’t succeed is inevitably going to be proven false. I also think it’s important to understand
what success is. Would anyone argue that Eve wasn’t a success? Actually this is the internet, people will
literally argue with anything…Most of us would say though that even is inarguably a
success and that’s a sandbox pvp game. Eve probably didn’t cost a lot of money to
make, I’ve read somewhere under 3 million usd. They’ve been operating for 16 years
and sold the studio eventually for 425 million usd to pearl abyss. They had at peak 500k monthly subs. They’ve had almost nothing but success. But I thought sandbox pvp games can’t succeed
right? Then that’s not even mentioning old school
runescape. How successful is that game? It just doesn’t hold up as a concept, there
are successful sandbox pvp mmorpgs. So basically we’re moving the goalposts here
in this fictious argument against this person. We’re now saying, sandbox pvp mmorpg games
can’t be mainstream successful, on the scale of say wow, final fantasy xiv, elder scrolls
online, black desert online, guild wars 2. Makes sense right? This is even a
really good point that you can use to counter what I said about games needing money to be
successful because black desert online actually cost almost nothing to make. If the sources are correct, black desert online
cost 1 million usd to make, they only had a couple years of development and then they
got massive publishing deals in all major regeions. Black desert online of the games on that list
is also the most leaning towards sandbox. The game in general has a lot of features
you could say are basically safe sandbox features. I personally wouldn’t consider it a proper
sandbox pvp game when I think about it but you definitely could examine that in a video
and have some real blurry points. So do we mark black desert online as a successful
sandbox pvp game or not? I don’t think it matters if you do to the
overall point, you can use that game as an example in either case as a for or against
in this debate. So if you’re going to make another point on
the success of games, that means of the 4 games remaining, the company with the least
money and resources would be arena net with their guild wars 2. Well they had a big budget, a big studio,
lots of experience developers, massive marketing, a good time to release their game and they
never scratched the surface on world of warcraft. So if a game with all of that can’t make it
to that height of wow, how can you expect a sandbox pvp game with probably 5% the budget
and resources available to make it to the level of these other games? It just doesn’t really seem like a reasonable
thing to ask. It would be like buying a bike from the shop
for $50 dollars and taking it to a race track where people are on actual motor bikes and
then when you obviously aren’t as successful at the race you say, god these bikes are so
useless, these can never be a success. You’re looking two totally different things
essentially. The companies developing these two game types
might as well be apples and oranges as a comparrison. Another quick thing to consider about success
is of course that sandbox games typically require much less playerbase to actually be
fun or playable and turn a profit. So even the games you think are dead typically
were actually some sembelance of success. One last quick thing on success and how I
think people just think on terms that are unreasonable…I know this for a fact because
I do this too, we’re all guilty of this. You see my youtube channel, 6k subscribers,
you think that’s nothing right? You’re used to all of these massive youtube
channels with hundreds and millions of subscribers. Yeah they’re the pinnacle of success. But am I not a success too? That depends on who you ask, for me I’m being
successful, i’m growing. I started with nothing and now I make a little
bit of money, I get a few thousand views on every video usually, I have some videos with
50k or more views…That’s more than most people, less than others. So what it comes down to is, my
initial investment and what I spend on youtube versus what I have and what I get, inarguably
I’m a success by that metric. A small home company that makes a profit is
a success. A sandbox pvp mmorpg that turns a profit and
operates for multiple years is a success. A lot of us just think in such grandiose ways
that even success is failure if you’re not literally the best in class, the best in category,
the best in show. So what do we have so far, we have successful
sandbox pvp mmorpgs already, we have the obvious disparity in money or resources spent on the
projects which has a direct correlation on success. What do we have in the points against this
position? Well, it hasn’t been done yet. I think it’s a bit more nuanced and I definitely
need people to fill me in on the other side of the coin. I’ve thought about this quite a lot and I
can’t really come up with many points in the opposing column. I think it’s most likely when a lot of people
say the statement “sandbox pvp games can’t succeed” it’s not like they don’t know most
of what I’ve just said or that they’re not capable of thinking it through…I think it’s
just really easy to throw it away as a concept because what kind of person is really putting
a lot of thought into this topic? I guess that’s why I’m here to make videos
like this for those of you that care. Maybe this would fit into a podcast format
better and we could have live questions and a real discussion about this at some point,
that might be fun. I’m obviously hugely bias in this debate because
I mean how could I not be, this is my opinion. So I want you, people who think sandbox pvp
mmorpgs can’t work to tell me in the comments why you think that is and what do you think
after hearing what I’ve said in this video. In fact just in general let me know in the
comments because I do think this is a pretty interesting topic, I didn’t even go over how
I think this will eventually be broken due to crowdfunding being acceptable now, it will
just take a while due to development cycles. Alright hope you guys enjoyed the video, like,
comment, subscribe, play with my bell. Join me on discord for more discussion, follow
me on twitter and Special shoutout to my youtube membership
squad for the extra support, Chillie Hue, Rowan, Miss Yun, Ramms, Duo T, Jack, Joe,
Marathon5150,Marius, Oliver, Kush Daddy and our newest member my boy Cryy, thanks brother. If you’re interested in showing that extra
support feel free to check out the join button under the videos next to that subscribe button. See you guys on the next one, PEACE!

Comments (37)

  1. I think the issue here is the precarious balancing act that is required to create a game were you have pvp and pve and players from both preferences playing together. Typically how it plays out is that the PVP aspect of the game grows to the point were it starts affecting the PVE player base to such a degree they start to quit leaving mostly just PVP players left. This is typically due to a lack of risk vs reward when it comes to PVP. Those who do not PVP typically feel that being PKed results in a serious loss in their time or wealth, which is true to a degree and yet those who do PVP see dying as a slight annoyance that is worth the risk in regards to the items and enjoyment they get from killing another player.
    The issue really becomes apparent when you have veteran players killing brand new player for no reason other than because they can. In this way their actions are directly affecting the future of the game because new players are the future.
    I think EVE did it right in that the risk vs reward was certainly present and there are areas were non pvp players can mostly feel safe and live and play and encounter pvp rarely.

  2. They do succeed. But being a very niched genra – it will still be top 1k players actively playing that game. This is unfortunantly very unprofitable and it's difficult to balance the risk vs reward that carries these games. If the risk is too high, people will quit, if it's too low, they'd rather just play a themepark game.
    Also, some of the games that people call sandbox, aren't really sandboxes.

  3. Honestly if most mmos made it easy to craft or make a build you wanted. I would play it more. I get so uninterested when I look at guild wars crafting system and I even don't feel like playing pso2 when it comes to the west cause how I heard the pets that help you are complicated to make if going for a certain type with certain skills. If things could be made and done without a whole hour long YouTube tutorial I would actually take the time to do it.

  4. And i'm just here waiting for a perfect sandbox pvp-oriented mmorpg that isn't somehow crippled, at the same time sitting with BDO, AA:U and Albion installed, wasting hours trying which one should i dig into instead of just enjoying all of them, cause every game has something done better than the others. No game can cater for every gamer and cover every area perfectly (like BDO with PvE, Archeage with other stuff etc.).
    Good video, sparking some good conversation is always a nice initiative!

  5. Kira, think about this, do any of us talk/know/interact with 6K people? More than 6 people is a success 🙂

  6. it comes down to the success of both UO and Everquest and how they both evolved, both of these games were very successful and yet very different. UO was the sandbox and Everquest was the Themepark and essentially Blizzard took the elements of Everquest that worked and created WOW a new Themepark style MMO. The unbelievable success of WOW sort of cast a dark shadow over the sandbox genre and Themepark MMOs now had it's champion. All the other game studios looked at WOW and wanted to recreate their success. It even reached the creators of UO who distorted their own vision to entice those who were accustomed to the more wholesome environments of EQ and WOW into trying UO with their Tamriel update. All the big studios focused on the Themepark MMO and were knocking out one after the other with varying degrees of success. Meanwhile the only studios that would even attempt a sandbox mmo were the indie studios. Sandbox mmos by their very nature attract a more dedicated hardcore following of gamers who want to be immersed and to be able to do whatever they see fit, this is is how the freedom to kill whomever you want to became so prevalent in the genre. Sandbox MMORPGs with PVP simply needs its champion, a game that will make other studios standup and take note, I think Star Citizen could be that game.

  7. I think most sandbox games fail is because they either were never sandbox from the start, but marketed themself as being one and raise player expectation which they cant really offer anything to OR they start out as sandbox and kill the game itself, because they listen to a bunch of players who arent sandbox players at all, change the game to a WoW-like-Clone where you just do dailies (which actually makes the complainers leave) and kill it to almost everybody. A game which started as a sandbox cant be switched to a "normal MMORPG", because too many elements are sandboxish.

    In my personal opinion the main reason because Sandbox "fail" compared to highly populated MMORPG is the fact that they are long term games. People these days want sucess and achievements every minute, thats why you level fast in a lot of games or get gear thrown at you, just to stay happy because you made some progress. Its absolutetely different in Sandbox and if everybody would think about how the first MMORPGs were (they were basically sandbox games), then you will figure out that they all were niche Games from the start. Those games arent made for the general Joe who cant play 2-3 hours without getting some free shit thrown at him, because he had a "hard day at work" and want to at least have some success in a virtual world.

    Im highly confident that developers could make a good Sandbox Game with a high grade of complexity within the world, crafting and gearing system that a lot of players would like, they just have to do it. Black Desert Online is successfull because it offers some complexity in the game, pretty fast progress (its fucking easy to get gear compared to the start of the game) AND freaking awesome graphics, which nowadays is a huge thing.

    Your point in terms of the "benchmark of success" is absolutely valid, i think people are just stupid always comparing everything to the Top 3 in the genre, but thats how it is and thats why people probably think EVE isnt successfull.

    I have some guys which i am looking forward to, because the relative features that a game should have to be and stay interesting for me arent implement in the ones that are out there. Would love to have a game like Dark Age of Camelot with all the Siege and RvR going on, but i dont think that can be recreated, because its probably more nostalgy than actuall content that im thinking of. We will see.

  8. success really depends on the devs. If they are just there for the money then that is easy. But for a real honest dev success would be very complex, they would have to make the money, have the game last a long time and have a very positive image with the players. This is what I would want anyway 🙂

  9. Sandbox MMO's can definitely be successful, no doubt about that, they just need to cater to the right type of crowd and this crowd is incredibly varied, there's literally a bit of everything and everyone so when you're making one of these, you cannot just focus on the PvP or PvE aspect and base the ENTIRE game around that like most themepark MMO's does, these two should, and need to be be there sure, but it shouldn't be the main focus, instead, the focus should be the variety of activities that'll make your game truly sandbox, stuff like gathering, crafting, trading, PvE, PvP, housing etc.

    But, what I will say though is that most Sandbox MMO's that have recently came out have made almost the same mistake that nearly costed their success, almost exclusively catering to the Hardcore PvP crowd… Albion Online for example, focused HEAVILY on Group PvP back in beta and release, there wasn't much PvE in the game and the non-PvP aspect was heavily gated behind PvP, for example, the access to the higher tier resources were incredibly limited due to the nodes being locked in guild controlled territory, which completely blocked the progression for many people who couldn't, or simply didn't want to join a big ass alliance or guild just to be able to progress normally in the game, which was a massive turn off for most people since most people play a game to have fun and take it chill, not to have a second job like that hardcore crowd does. And now look at where it's at now, the game is way more varied in term of content and their heavy focus on group PvP have slowly declined, and ever since they turned F2P, which is when they started to actually listen to those non-PvP and casual people more, their numbers skyrocketed and are still growing to this day.

    Archeage did the same mistake at launch in 2013, game's was overly PvP focused and in the end it just turned more people off than it actually turned on.

    Same thing with BDO, the game was way more PvP focused back then than it is now, and low and behold, the game's population increased massively ever since they've put more focus on variety

    see what I mean ? but don't get me wrong, PvP SHOULDN'T be removed from these games, it's what makes the world feel more coherent and alive, BUT it shouldn't be the only focus, same goes for PvE, it shouldn't be the only focus.

    But this is just my own opinion after all, I'm more of a PvE players in most MMO's and generally hate full loot PvP because of how unfair and frustrating it is for me, but I get that's why so many people do enjoy it too. I just think sandbox MMO's should stop catering to the hardcore crowd and instead catering to the more "average" player who plays games to have fun.

    Note: also… I know you like PvP games way more but… I think it would be a good idea if you could check out project gorgon at some point, it's an old school sandbox type MMO developed by two veterans who worked on Everquest, Asheron's call so that might be worth checking out ^^

  10. The problem with sand box mmos is that they are self cannibalizing. The strong prey on the weak till the weak leave the game and then they start on the next strongest and so on. I'm not saying it's not possible, more so it's just what's happened so far.

  11. The Big money is Mobile Games.
    The biggest market in the world is in Asia(China by far).
    The (non-mobile)MMO market in the gaming world is shrinking.
    (themepark)WoW has been on a steady decline since it's peak(Wrath of the Lich King), Classic saved the game from going on Life-Support.
    (themepark)FFXIV is growing in popularity because, they listen to the community, and they EARNED this trust, the hard way.
    In light of all of these facts, is Sandbox a dying breed? Maybe/Maybe not
    — but if I wanted to make a game and attract investors to fund it and make it "successfull" in spirit of capitalism.
    the LAST thing I would do is a Western MMO, let alone a Sandbox one.. because lets be honest here MONEY TALKS. 🙁

  12. I think Sandbox MMOs have a limited audience. People just don't like relatively unrestrictive PvP and I think this is the key. I've never had a friend that I played MMOs with that has liked them because of the PvP. I remember how hard it was to keep my friends playing on Deathwing(PvP Server) on WoW, it was like pulling teeth and 2 years later they all migrated to a PvE realm…

    Don't get me wrong, Sandbox MMOs can be successful but I think the trend in gaming for more casual games even in the MMO space has made most current day gamers pretty resistant to difficult PvP centric MMO sandboxes because there isn't direct path to get to "endgame".

    The simple reality is that even if an open world sandbox game was absolutely revolutionary, graphically brilliant and a complex and interesting world setting….it would probably still be overshadowed by theme park MMOs. People into MMOs are just acclimated to the gameplay loop they offer.

    As gamers that like Sandbox MMOs all we can do is seek them out and support them to show the developers there is an audience to be had. If they turn enough of a profit to justify keeping the doors open then it's a success.

    I think the question you are more or less asking is can a Sandbox MMO be a major success like WoW or FFXIV. I think it's possible but just not probable.

  13. Part of the problem with Sandbox games as an MMO is getting people keep playing the game.

    What many are missing is a mechanic that allows for replay or Alt-play that rewards the player and keeps them returning.

    There is only so much PvP and fort building a player can take without getting bored. Ideas include…

    1. Open additional equipment slots for "prestige-ing" a character.

    2. Open addition classes for Max lvling a character…make it a chain.

    By rewarding players for repeating low lvl areas and content those areas always have population. Keeping the game fresh (new classes or equipment) for newer and older players.

    This also promotes community by allowing experienced players to play with newbs, keeps areas from becoming ghost towns, gives new players something to see and want to continue playing to work towards.

    This concept could be equipment based as well as character based.

  14. Sandbox PVP MMORPG dont work.
    They only Work on a small scale Like Conan Exile or Rust but this are Not MMORPGs.
    The Problem of the most PvP Sandbox MMOrpgs is that they Focus on PvP and PvE is total Trash Like Mortal, Darkfall or even Early Access MMORPGs Like Crowfall.
    How Long will PvP keep a Player on the Game with totaly Trash Balance?
    Not so long…

    Make a good PvE Game with Strong PvP Like Eve and you can have a big (for this Genre) Playerbase.
    DAoC (the dream of every PvP Player…) but wat was his biggest Problem? The Shit PvE (Hardcore Grind)
    Warhammer was one of this Games that wer nice (only T1-T3 PvP) but Had no Content and Trash end PvP but the Mix of Themenpark and PvP was so nice

  15. UO, Helbreath, Dragon Raja. All old Sandbox MMOs with pvp that I loved playing(some I still do)
    OSRS does have pvp but most of the time you can do everything in that game with out going into a pvp zone so I don't like that about it.
    Albion Online this game is so good! I feel like it is one of the best sandbox MMO just a lot of people don't like it. "Ew it is point and click to move I can not play that" they say or "Full loot pvp? I can lose all my gear when I die? No way man"
    The full loot pvp makes the game not pay to win and I love that if you spend 200 bucks and get a good set of gear I can just kill you and take it for free.

  16. I did't played all of the sandbox mmorpgs but i tried a lot of these games and i really luv idea itself (Most of my time in mmo's or even online games at all i spent on PvP game modes and its just my opinion) but i never played sandbox pvp focused game that done pvp part "right" All these games that i've played always had heavily gear based pvp Most of them did't even had decent diversity in gear (the only difference between set pieces is pure power) Another thing in these games is shallow or average at best combat system (even if it looks amazing like in BDO) All this is leaving almost no place for player (not a character) skil (despite of very small "elite" PvP communities) Now what type of audience you end up with games like this ? "Sheep" PvE players won't stay for long A little more "hardcore" PvP players that normally would engage will leave sooner or later too because they have to do PvE grind that they won't normally do Even if some of them will grind long enough to be "competitive" They will get bored by having almost no challenge in PvP most of the time And you end up with heavily PvP focused game where competitive PvP scene is the smallest group on the server (mostly ppl who just enjoying "killing noobs" not PvP itself and some small "elite" PvP duelists group) because core feature (around which you designed your game) is f broken XD

  17. Why i love sandbox mmorpg open world pvp is because there is almost no moment of playing the game without something happening thats not scriptet or when your out and about you have be on your toes, when i try normal mmorpgs i get ONE bored as facked same shit all over again go here quest there bla bla bla TWO i almost allways fall asleep in my chair because nothing really happens.
    Often when Sandbox MMORPG lanches like Darkfall or Mortal online or even Albion online the thrill of completly new stuff and none scripted stuff happening gets me totally lost in them games can sit for 10h straight and allways something new or a new experiance will happen.
    When i play normal mmos i usally tab out and keep a eye on my firends list to see when someone comes online so i can play something ells.

    Success for me if the game has been online for years than its a Success even if there is only a few 10.000 players, if it still goes its a Success

    Im hoping for Amazon to Nail it with New World its time we hardcore sandbox mmorpg players get a AAA game.

  18. its fun until a dominant guild takes decent control of resource nodes, city hubs etc, then its only fun for them. the only way to combat it is with better systems, but most devs just want a quick buck nowadays, also its often the worst players that are the most vocal in forums developing relationships with admins early, who then excuse this type of unfair advantage as a feature.

  19. MMO market is shrinking unless you play mobile.
    PvP players are playing other games (Battle Royale, MOBAS, Shooters etc.)
    Sandbox game launches are really nonexistent outside of indie products with no marketing and will therefore die.
    The reason why the bigger ones last is because they have such a varied audience and budget, and PvE makes people come back.
    I dont know any PvP focused MMO that lasted on its own without other content

    Overall a measure of "success" is subjective, but if you have way more people saying your game is shit because you couldn't get people to play because of bad game design then how much of a "success" is it really?

  20. Its the exclusive pve mmo-rpg/sandbox game that will eventually die out. The player driven experience and the kind of systems a pvp-sandbox mmo-rpg has always outweighs the pve exclusive titles. AND THEY DO INCLUDE PVE so it just has more going for it, we are at a point now where pve exclusive babies are being (Excuse my language) whiny cunts and REFUSE to adapt or learn yet expect everything to cater to them even though they typically DONT support the game and dont want to have to learn.

    Case and point is guild wars 2, The game is basically dead. People will come at me now saying "no its not, you fucking idiot go die blarg blarg blarg" But hear me out. Every other game is getting an expansion and even those pve based games are on a decline because its a rinse repeat of the content, raids come out gear grind begins and there is a point where you get to "This character is done." And eventually you get tired of it. Guild wars 2 removes the gear grind and has little to no content, it tried so hard to be different and was MADE to be a pvp based game and it failed. Not because of it, but because of poor development and horrible design decisions. Its a prime example of a mmo-WoW-lite game who tried to take what WoW does and do it better and failing on every front outside of graphics, and now its going with maintenance mode patches and abandoning content.

    The only one that will live is WoW, It wont die until blizz kills it. And every mmo-rpg coming out in the next bit seems to be more focused on open world pvp with pve features strewn throughout. This is because they DONT need to invest into making raids every three months or dungeons, the player driven experience of the fight and dealing with others MAKES the game what it is. Instanced PvE driven mmo's are dying and we wont see a PvE exclusive title after the next few years ~ But the Sandbox pvp mmo-rpg? I feel its got so much room to grow and its not as prominent and has a huge market, dev's just need to have the stones to ACTUALLY stick to their vision.

  21. The main reason why we havnt seen many Sandbox games is because for the last decade or so everyone has been trying to copy the WoW model. Only in the last few years have we seen a drift towards Sandbox style games again. Unfortunately in that time also we have seen the utter peak of pay 2 win and shady monetization tactic leading to the failure of many MMOs both theme park and sandbox. Its not the monetization alone that leads to such failure but the fact that the monetization takes precedence over gameplay. Sandboxes may not achieve the same kind of success as say WoW because some of us including me do not like Open PvP. BUT I have played and enjoyed games such as BDO because they had measures to prevent over griefing. Ultimatelyt I dont think it matters whether a game is Sandbox or Theme Park it can succeed if it is been well planned out and If it has fair measures to control abuse without dumbing the game down entirely.

  22. AAU is a succesful sandbox pvp mmorpg to me

  23. You've already answered your original question and I agree with you. I think a different question would be which would have more mainstream success a ffapvp or consensual pvp sandbox? Consensual would take more to develop because a "other" would need to be created to push the player vs other players.

  24. Recent versions of the game named Rust has getting character progression, so I would argue that Rust is close to a pure sandbox MMORPG. In comparison I wouldn't call Black desert a sandbox game.
    It would probably be helpful to start out defining the term. I think you can trace the history of the term to the mud-dev mailinglist

  25. When I think about this, Eve Online comes to mind of a game which is sandbox with incredible PVE and PVP and feels like an MMORPG at times. With Eve you have the choice to do whatever you want while also doing NPC mission, grinding rep and your typical MMO stuff. I feel the main hurdle to all of this is us, we have become a bunch of very entitled neck beards ?

  26. Having an Sandbox PVP MMORPG being successful is very unlikely, I personally see success as becoming one of the top MMOs, no need to beat WoW but at least be Top 5, doing a little bit of profit on the side as a niche game is obviously not what people think about when they say success in the MMO field

  27. KiraTV i started my first sandbox pvp is planet side despite me not liking shooter that much it , it feel so dam amazing and best mmorpg players fps game ever made , i also started warhammer online from 2 weeks ago and join guild and have blast , but in case you played dark age of camelot can you give me basic advice ? i start the game in alone server not knowing how much the population are and i never complain in my life about UI since i don't care but that dark age of camelot thing ? is just new beast i never saw and my movment little bit clunky even compare to warhammer online which feels fine , so any tips ? thanks

  28. don't waste ur time arguing with idiots

  29. I’ve been spending a few hours everyday in my own home designing the perfect MMO sandbox game but I have no one to share it with any ideas how I can bounce ideas off people? … think eve online meets civilization with a concept that takes away leveling up in favor of joining an alliance that you can live with that has its own in game currency ( basically its own country) fighting other countries

  30. Good topic thank you.

  31. That´s a highly hypothetical question, and IMO your mistake is that you only seem to think in business terms. I mean it´s obvious the easiest way to tell if a game is a success and of course it is important for the operation of a game. For me as a player quite more important is, is that game fun, do the mechanics in the game make sense, do new players coming to the game stand a chance against longer playing people so the player base will keep fresh, or are they just cannon fodder for x months/years, how is the performance of the game etc. A successful game for me is a game that I enjoy to play and I haven´t found a Sandbox PVP game yet that is fun to me. I have my hopes in CU but we will see. So, of course, Sandbox PvP can be successful. I mean you can go out on the streets today and find 50k £ laying there, nothing is impossible. Is it likely to happen, probably not, for all the reasons you have mentioned in your video. The financial risk of such a project driving investors away, the budget of smaller studios, the actual player base interested in such a game, the lack of innovation regarding the PvP system in such games, the lack of technical resources to make the game have good performance etc. Especially the performance point is supercritical for me for the success of a PvP game, look how many problems CU has to make their game handle a lot of people on screen, they created their own engine, the reinvented several systems during the development which has cost them time, money, delays etc. Not every studio can do that so they have to rely on licensed engines like Unreal which are not necessarily optimized for such a project. And on the other side look at ESO with all the Zenimaxes and Bethesdas and all the money behind it and the performance in PvP is still shit and with shit I mean skill delays of a few seconds, fps drops that you think you are looking at a dia show, even on decent machines etc. So hopefully we get such a game sometimes in the future, hope dies last.

  32. Which game is it you are playing at 1:45?

  33. What game is that with the territory map at 6:57?

  34. Oh god the vibes…. Fighting The Mercs, Rainbow Ninja's, VAMP etc was NEVER fun in Darkfall hahaha. All those names bring back good and bad memories 😛 Well mostly bad memories… xD

    I don't seem to have a need to watch the video in order to put a reaction. Sandbox pvp games are beyond AMAZING. But people are too obsessed and hyped over graphics. Then the fact that people are simply used to being put in pillows and have a comforting mother hand patting their head like "awww, good job! You completed a quest and defeated the baddie! Here is your reward!".

    Many people, despite their effort of saying not, can NOT handle any form of a loss. I mean look at League of Legends. I troll 2 games and I get added by 6 people out of 8 telling me they want to meet and kill me irl etc etc. I win people 200 games and I get 1 person adding me to thank me.

    Sandbox games are meant for hardcore players. And hardcore people alone. Many of the people that play them are simply giant douchebags. Or so they seem on the outside. That's what I thought at the beginning. To a point where I ragequitted numerous of times. I kept coming back over the set of months and learned to adept to the game. And once I got hooked, I got HOOKED! I joined tons of teamspeaks and ventrillo's at that time. The typical 'douchebags' were like a bigger family than my own family. They were the nicest people you could think off.

    It's like looking at how Archeage Unchained is now. Most casual players left, the hardcore people remained. Sandbox open world pvp games are easily scaring off the casual players. Which are a whoooole lot of them. And that's why they normally aren't that succesful.

  35. After finishing the video, I love how you actually put your thoughts onto this. You're like the voice of all Sandbox MMORPG.

    Very good job 🙂 I loved the part about "Do you consider me succesful?". What is success? A person that simply does what companies pay em for? Like throw in sponsors allover? Or force you to tell how GREAT a game is, despite that it is epically bad?
    Or a person that simply tells the players what it all is about? How bad a game is in reality when the company doesn't pay them?

  36. I agree with the whole company thing. I think MMO is the hardest genre to work on that after all that work…. You don't want it to fail. Probably why New World changed gears .. can't blame them. But I think I have a solution…. Make a Sandbox MMO that caters to and will steal the RUST and ARK fanbase and it can be successful.

    I have some questions for you though…

    1. What's your favorite Sandbox MMO?
    2. Which one do you think is most successful?
    3. Which one are you most looking forward to?

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